Updated July 2026: This interview was originally published in June 2025, when Kathleen was working as a lawyer, pursuing financial independence, and hosting a podcast called The Minimal(ish) Mom. She has since retired from her legal career and renamed her podcast The Reframe!
Kathleen is returning to my blog for a follow-up conversation about early retirement and what life looks like on the other side of FIRE. I’ll add that link here once the new interview is published!
Welcome, Kathleen
I was curious to hear Kathleen’s thoughts on how gratitude and minimalism reinforce one another, and if frugality actually feel luxurious?
In this conversation, Kathleen shares how gratitude shapes her approach to spending, consumption, family travel, financial independence, and everyday life.
She’s a wife, mom, and lawyer. If that wasn’t enough on her plate, she also hosts the Minimal(ish) Mom podcast [now The Reframe]. Her tagline? More joy, less hedonic treadmill.
Yes, please!
In Our Conversation, Kathleen Discusses:
- How gratitude can reduce the desire to consume more
- Why some frugal choices can feel more luxurious
- Her family’s path toward financial independence and early retirement
- Practical strategies for resisting impulse purchases
- Choosing experiences and memories over possessions
- Using points and miles to make family travel more affordable
- How gratitude encourages generosity and intentional spending
She speaks with refreshing clarity about what it means to live gratefully and intentionally, especially in the face of unexpected challenges including her recent breast cancer diagnosis. Her family’s approach to minimalism isn’t about deprivation — it’s about enjoying the good things on offer in life and reframing frugality as luxury.
What follows is part interview, part mini-masterclass. You can connect with her on Instagram and I encourage everyone to check out her fabulous podcast!
Welcome, Kathleen!!
Gratitude in Daily Life
Q. Would you consider yourself an optimist, a pessimist, or a realist?
I’m an optimist – but one who firmly believes in the stoic practice of “premeditation malorum.” My grandma would have skipped the awkward Latin and said “prepare for the worst, and hope for the best.” Basically, I try to approach life’s challenges in a pretty clear-headed way, ready for whatever setbacks or disappointments that may come, but with the faith that I have the resources to make it through rough spots.
Q. Do you have any daily or weekly gratitude practices? If so, please describe!
Informal, but almost daily! I often wake up a few minutes before my alarm clock, and I use that time to thank God for all the goodness in my life: for kids who are loving and curious, a husband who holds me at night, a mom who is the ultimate encourager, a dad in heaven who is rooting for his family. I thank God for our warm and safe home, for the fact that we’ll all gather over dinner that night, and that He has a plan for our lives. And if it’s a work-from-home day or a meeting-light day, I toss up a little gratitude for that too! [I often find myself intentionally savouring small, everyday moments of gratitude — “little joys” I call them — but it’s shockingly easy to take the “big” things for granted: a safe home, supportive family members, and time spent with people we love.]
Q. If gratitude were a colour, what colour do you think it would be?
I can’t decide between a sunny yellow or a warm, rosy pink. Maybe a combination of those two, the way they appear together during particularly gorgeous sunsets! [Guests are all leaning toward yellow and pink as the signature hues of gratitude — maybe I can convince Benjamin Moore to launch a Gratitude Collection paint line? Also, now I’m craving fresh peaches. Yum!]
Q. If you could thank one object in your house for making your life easier, what would it be and why?
The little tile carve-out nook in our master bath shower. I adore a steaming-hot shower while playing a podcast and sipping a favorite cold beverage. Thanks to our shower nook and its acoustics, I can listen to a podcast playing from the phone, sip something delicious, and enjoy the water all at once! It’s the ultimate way to unwind. [Cold drinks in the shower? I haven’t ever tried that, but your description makes it sound like a very inexpensive — yet indulgent — ritual!]
Q. What’s something ridiculously specific or odd you’re grateful for in this exact moment?
My husband’s free-from-work oversized hoodie. It’s plastered with a big bank logo and says “Talent and Performance Management” on the chest — truly, peak corporate swag and not my style, but…
Three days ago, I had a double mastectomy. (Thanks, breast cancer!) So as I type this answer, with surgical drains sewn into my chest wall and healing wounds and the occasional bout of tears, I am ridiculously grateful that I can swaddle my tender self in this soft, zip-front wonder. [I’m so sorry you’re navigating this unexpected path, but appreciate your openness in sharing. The concept of “swaddling” sounds both tender and gentle — a perfect approach to recovery and a helpful reminder that we all need to show ourselves compassion.]
Q. If you had to define “living a grateful life” in one sentence, what would you say? Would you have defined it differently 20 years ago?
At 24, I was more focused on striving than gratitude — making As in law school, lining up the right summer associate gig, weighing the pros and cons of federal clerkships. I generally appreciated life’s big blessings (and there were many!), but I was too hyper-focused on achieving the next step to take time for deeper gratitude.
At 44, my version of a grateful life means this: I take time to notice small blessings and little bits of beauty. Hugs from my sons, a perfectly ripe strawberry, the tension-melting sensation of a hot shower after a long day. When we’re grateful at the micro level, we spend our days leaping from small delight to small delight. It’s a really lovely way to live. [I love the imagery of leaping between delights — how light and liberating!]
How Gratitude Shapes Spending, Minimalism, and FIRE
Q. How does gratitude impact the way you approach spending and consumption? (I’m thinking of your podcast episodes where you reframed frugality as luxury and inconvenience as opportunity!)
My greatest joy and deepest gratitude comes from spending time with my family. So I frame spending and consumption decisions through the lens of “will this advance my goal of spending time together?”
For our family, this means pursuing financial independence, with the end-game goal of early retirement. The common acronym for this is “FIRE” – financial independence, retire early. The shorthand explanation is that we’re aiming to save/invest enough to retire in our 40s and have complete time freedom to pursue whatever we want, including calm, unhurried time with our kids.
Reaching FIRE in your 40s requires some pretty aggressive savings and dedication to frugality. But it’s not a miserable path along the way! In fact, I strongly believe that we can reframe some frugal practices as luxurious, and some of the self-imposed inconveniences as opportunities. In fact, we can make the journey to FIRE a joy, when we’re willing to put in a little effort to learn new skills.
Food is an easy place to start. We’re culturally accustomed to paying a massive premium for supposed convenience of prepared food… I know I had a long and storied history with takeout menus and Saturday night reservations. But when we examine these expenditures more closely, I think the frugal option is often the more enjoyable and — dare I say it? — luxurious one.
Start with breakfast. We can easily replace the daily $12 iced coffee-and-egg bite Starbucks breakfast (eaten on the run, in the car or at the desk, while responding to emails) with a homemade version enjoyed on the good china at home, and clocking in at a buck or two. If you prep a dozen egg bites early in the week and use the timer function on the coffee machine, then the frugal option doesn’t cost any time compared to the “convenience” option, and it’s a more civilized meal. Luxury! Oh, and it saves
around $2500 per year. Frugality! Plus, the home-made version is more environmentally friendly: no waste from packaging drinks and food individually, no idling engine in the drive through at Starbucks. That’s a world I want for my kids and their kids. So the frugal luxury version seems like all win, no drawback. [“That’s a world I want for my kids and their kids.” What an impactful perspective. Would I want my kids/nieces/nephews/grandchildren to be living the life I am? Am I making choices with my money and time that I would wish for them to replicate? A great reframe for considering our values and habits in adulthood, and a timely reminder that our choices can have a generational ripple.]
Another food example: date night with a spouse can easily clock in around $300 – $400 a pop, if you’re talking about hiring a sitter for a few hours, taking Ubers so you can drink responsibly, and enjoying a reasonably nice dinner. What’s the frugal luxury alternative? Wait until the kids go to bed, then spend a little time cooking together at home, trying a new recipe, flirting with each other while you sample spoonfuls of sauce. [We’ve cherished weekly Date Nights at home for almost a decade! A few years ago, a couple we knew got married and as part of their wedding celebrations they asked friends to e-mail them a list of their best relationship advice. Our very first suggestion was to prioritize at-home dates, especially if they ended up having children (spoiler alert: they now have two). I love being able to stay home, save money (no babysitter! no restaurant tipping!), spend the evening in PJs watching a documentary together, and head to bed whenever we want. As a bonus for me, we started out with my husband handling all the food prep for these dates and the tradition stuck. I don’t have to lift a finger. Date nights are often the highlight(s) of my week!]
And hey, you can get saucy with each other, in a way that might get you tossed out of a restaurant! Get the good San Marzano tomatoes, the 36-month aged Parmesan — it’s relatively reasonably priced when it’s from the grocery store, compared to when it’s plated at the local osteria. And the wine? Indulge in a $50 bottle from a local shop, knowing it would have been marked up to $150 or more at the restaurant. All-in, dinner is $75 to $100, not $300 to $400. Do this twice a month, and you’re easily saving north
of $6000 per year. When we do this, we’re living the good life while also making huge strides towards our FIRE goals.
Once you start down this path, examining daily rhythms and unearthing opportunities for frugal luxury becomes invigorating. Reducing the nighttime temp on the home thermostat is a frugal move. [I’ll acknowledge this is very frugal, but I just can’t, Kathleen!]. But it’s also a “luxury” move if you pile on your softest, warmest blankets and enjoy that delicious feeling of cool air on your face while your body stays toasty. With a touch of patience, you can source gorgeous cashmere sweaters (luxury) from Goodwill or consignment shops (frugality). You can learn a new skill and hand-refinish that dowdy old painted dresser from grandma (frugality) to reveal a gorgeous walnut antique (luxury). This thinking can apply to small inconveniences too. For example, line-drying laundry is a frugal and environmentally-friendly move, because air dryers are energy monsters. The small inconvenience of bending, squatting, hanging, and pinning the laundry could be seen as an inconvenience, but we can also reframe it as an opportunity (it’s a chance to add some squats and other body weight work).
I love this game because it’s not just saving for the sake of saving. It’s saving with a deep purpose: achieving the ultimate luxury of owning our own time, free and clear. No Zoom meetings, no sad desk salads, no commute traffic. Total agency over our own time — now THAT is luxury!
Ambition, Contentment, and Intentional Spending
Q. Is it possible for goal setting and gratitude to coexist — in other words, can ambition and contentment live in the same space?
Oh, absolutely — ambition and contentment can live in the same space! But I think it needs to be the right kind of ambition. “Ambition” can certainly be the more self-centered kind — the person on the hedonic treadmill always chasing the next accolade, the next promotion, the next fancy watch (or car or bag or [insert trinket here]) to signal to the world or to themselves “I’ve made it!”
That kind of ambition is fundamentally incompatible with contentment and gratitude. It’s built on a foundation of insecurity; it’s insatiable; and it risks consuming people. But when ambition or goal-setting are turned outward, rather than inward — for instance, when the aim is to relieve suffering, without seeking recognition for those efforts — then goal setting and gratitude can live together.
Case in point: I know a couple who increased their giving goal each year. Over the course of 5 years they moved from giving away 10% of their income to donating 15% of their income. That was an ambitious goal — it required a plan, strategic financial reallocation, and researching where their money could do the most good. Their goals included paying for the construction of nearly a dozen homes for families in Haiti, building a water well for one community, and funding a mobile solar power station in another one. Their goals were ambitious and outward-focused, but they were private and quiet in their execution. They gave with a contented heart, grateful that they had jobs that would allow them to help other families. Here goal setting and gratitude didn’t just co-exist; they fed each other in a really healthy, beautiful way. [Love this!]
Q. What strategies do you use to resist the urge to make impulse purchases when you’re feeling negative emotions?
Write it down! My journal has a section called “Wants and Responses.” I write down everything I want and why I want it. I don’t buy it immediately. Instead, a few days later, I review the entry. Many times, it’s clear that my “want” was an attempt to patch over a temporary frustration, and with a clearer head I can see that it wouldn’t have even been a very effective patch.
Remember that some day, I’ll probably want to declutter the thing. That really cute, trendy dress probably isn’t particularly well-made, and by next summer I’ll probably want to donate it. And if I donate it, will it even be useful to someone else — or will it end up in a landfill? Thinking through the whole lifecycle of an object can help temper impulse purchasing.
Consider the ecological and ethical cost. What resources were mined or harvested to make this thing? At what ecological cost? Who made it, and under what working conditions? Would I want my kids to work in those conditions? More often than not, this series of questions puts the kibosh on purchasing anything new.
Consider the opportunity cost. What am I giving up if I buy this thing? For us, if I buy a $200 dress I’m saving $200 less. That’s $200 that can be invested to fund the FI nest egg. Total time freedom is more appealing than any cute sun dress (especially when — come on, truth time — I already have 15 cute sun dresses). [Again, such helpful reframes. It’s easy to lose perspective on the time cost associated with earning the money that goes toward consuming “stuff” and rather sobering when it gets broken down into time increments. The environmental and humanitarian costs are so often hidden from view. It’s easy to click “Add to cart” (little to no friction these days!) or throw something away (forgetting there is no Away — our trash goes somewhere, almost always impacting other humans who have no real say in the matter) without thinking about the before and after implications of that purchase…I wrote this response before reading your answer to the next question. We are clearly on the same wavelength!]
Experiences Over Possessions and Minimalist Living
Q. How has gratitude influenced your perspective on experiences vs. possessions, and how does that fit with minimalism and frugality?
We’ve all heard “experiences over things” ad nauseam, but there’s a reason why this wisdom gets so much air time. Stuff breaks, but our memories of experiences stay with us. In fact, in a pretty cool quirk of the human brain, our memories even become more positive with time thanks to a phenomenon called the “rosy retrospection bias.” So building memories with family ranks tops in my books.
Investing in memories rather than possessions also supports my desire to build a sustainable, minimalist life. Life is easier with less stuff to manage! This is particularly true when we think about the full lifecycle of our stuff, both before and after its time in our homes. This outlook frames our relationship with possessions as one of stewardship, rather than ownership. When we’re stewards of our possessions, we take responsibility for ensuring that they’re well-used and well-cared for while they’re with us.
But we also have a duty to ensure that they’re well-placed when they leave us… because there is no magical “away” when we declutter. The decluttered stuff still exists. I’ve found that when we assume responsibility for the full “life cycle” of an object, it’s natural to want to limit how many objects we’re responsible for! [Ha, see my commentary above!]
A concrete example: clothing. I aim to own less-but-better, to source it ethically (second-hand, avoiding fast fashion labels), to wear it well (many wears, for many seasons, mending when necessary), and then to responsibly pass it on when I can’t use it any longer (via a Buy Nothing group, or donation to Goodwill, or as a rag if it’s beyond reasonable use).
In short: by minimizing the stuff that comes into our lives, we can focus our financial resources on building memories together, and by stewarding well the limited stuff that does come into our lives, we can reduce our ecological footprint and put downward pressure on aggregate demand!
Family Travel, Points, and Miles
Q. My readers love to travel. One of your podcast episodes details how your family enjoyed $58,000 (!!) in free travel in 2024. What does travel look like for a “grateful minimalist” and what are your best hacks for saving money?
Exploring the world with my sweet little family is one of life’s greatest joys. We love collecting memories together, and watching my kids become confident world citizens is a delight. At the same time, I don’t want travel to tank our dreams of reaching FIRE. So, how to do it on the cheap?
It turns out that the points and miles game is quite lucrative. A few years back, I leveled up my casual “points and miles” hobby with the aim of accumulating enough points from our everyday spend to cover two major trips per year. Turns out, it just takes a little concentration and DIY spirit to make that happen! In 2024, we took the whole family (including my mom) on a two-week adventure through Paris, Amsterdam, and Copenhagen, with business class flights both ways. Domestically, we also took the
boys to New York twice, Key Largo, San Francisco, and San Diego. This year we did 10 days in Japan for spring break, and next month we’re leaving on a nearly three-week trip to Athens, Crete, Malta, and Paris. Just last night, I booked Spring Break 2026: Madrid! Thanks to points and miles, it’s all at about 90% off retail sticker price.
For folks just getting started in this space, here are some core concepts: Focus on transferable points, not airline- or hotel-specific points: Rather than focusing on points for any particular airline or hotel chain, open bank credit cards that issue transferrable points. These are generally Chase (Ultimate Rewards), American Express (Membership Rewards), Capital One (Miles), and CitiBank (Thank You points).
When you have transferrable bank points, you can transfer them to the airlines or hotels that have the best deals at the time you need to book a trip. You also cushion yourself against unannounced “devaluations” where a particular airline or hotel suddenly makes their own points or miles less valuable.
Start by opening a card with a strong welcome bonus (also called a “sign up bonus”): This is something like “100,000 points for $6000 in spend in the first three months.” That means for the first $6000 in spend, you’re earning more than 16 points per dollar, rather than one point per dollar! If you time your card openings well, every transaction you do can be working towards a sign-up bonus.
Enter “Two Player” mode ASAP: You’re “Player 1” as the person managing this game. A spouse can be “Player 2.” Having two players doubles your ability to open new cards at a reasonable clip (basically, you take turns opening cards), and you can earn referral bonuses for referring each other for new card openings. If you take turns referring each other for cards — and every purchase moves you closer to a sign-up bonus on a card — you’ll rapidly find yourself with hundreds of thousands of points ready to transfer to airlines to cover your flights.
Map out large expenses that can give you a “one and done” sign-up bonus: Sometimes, if you have a big expense, you can knock out a sign-up bonus on a single transaction. My favorite is doing a big charitable donation in the amount of the sign-up bonus. It’s money we had planned to give away to help people, and now we get this beautiful bonus from it! [And, as you point out in your podcast episode, not only do you get the points kickback — allowing you to save more money on travel so you’re able to give more — it’s also a tax-deductible expense! This workaround is genius on so many levels.]
Other good options include things like homeowners insurance payments and medical bills. Some big bills (like income and property tax payments) can be paid with credit cards for a percentage fee, but do the math carefully to make sure you come out far ahead before paying to use a credit card!
Expand your horizons: Be willing to experiment with booking flights on foreign airlines (Air France and KLM have been favorites of ours), and become a sponge for points and miles-related content. Two of my favorite sources of info: the Frequent Miler podcast, and the Points and Miles Doc on Instagram.
Travel hacking is an immensely satisfying game. I don’t like puzzles or board games or really any kind of competition. But with travel hacking, you’re competing against yourself, and the payoff is seeing the world with your family.
Gratitude, Generosity, and Spending on What Matters
Q. How could gratitude encourage us to spend more money, but on things we truly value, rather than constantly hoarding resources or pinching pennies?
Gratitude for all the blessings and beauty in my life has made me want to spend more money on giving. So many people and animals around the world are suffering — deeply suffering — while my life is so relationally and materially abundant.
We have a separate bank account for giving. With every paycheck, or bonus, or windfall, the first thing I do is transfer a given percentage into the giving account.
From there, we have regular monthly donations, but there’s also plenty of “giving slush fund” that’s not allocated on a monthly basis. It’s such a joy to give that money away, sometimes on a whim. For example, if we’re dining out and a server looks particularly tired, I’ll leave a three-figure tip on a two-figure bill. Or we’ll spontaneously send $5000 to a charity we’ve long supported, asking that it be allocated to whatever their most pressing need is. Feeling grateful for our massively abundant life makes me want to
spend more on giving, to spread the blessings around!
Kathleen’s Ideal Gratitude-Filled Day
Q. If you could plan a day based entirely on things you’re grateful for, what would that day look like from start to finish?
Oh, this is a fun one! Let’s call this one a Saturday morning in May…
- All-natural wakeup: Wake up, sans alarm, to a sunny, 75-degree day. The window is open and I can hear birds singing and the far-off drone of a lawn mower. My husband’s arm is draped over me.
- Breakfast: Kiss each of my kiddos and go downstairs to make their breakfast. Why be grateful for this — it sounds like a chore, right? Au contraire. The ability to make breakfast for my boys fills my heart with happiness, because there have been so many years where it wasn’t an option. I’ve had periods of work travel that were so long (a month away at a time, for a trial — I’m a lawyer) and so intense (working 14-20 hour days, on a sustained basis) that the only thing my heart longed for was the chance to make breakfast for my kids and spend a few minutes with them. So when it happens, it’s not a chore — my heart sings.
- Grocery shopping: We grocery shop on Saturdays, starting at Aldi for the deals and rounding out the rest of the list at Wegmans. I love grocery shopping, so this is actually a treat. Frankly, I very much love shopping (hello, 90s teen who lived at the mall!). . . but I also love simplicity and reducing our aggregate consumption. So grocery shopping is my perfect weekly excuse to shop… all for necessary items! In this “All Gratitude” day, one of my kids would join for the grocery excursion, and we could talk while he pushed the cart. I adore any chance for casual, side-by-side, one-on-one chitchat with my teens. And because I get to write the script here, the morning’s grocery charges tipped me over the edge to receive the signup bonus on my newest credit card. I happily dream what we’ll do with another 100k Chase Ultimate Rewards. Spring break in Spain, anyone?
- Family DC Adventure: By some miracle, the kids don’t have basketball games, so the day is free. We all hop onto the Metro into DC (grateful for environmentally- friendly public transit, and avoiding the hassle of searching for a parking place downtown). In DC, we stroll the National Mall and pop in and out of a few Smithsonian museums. Thanks to our taxpayer dollars, they’re all free! Once we’re hungry, we consult my Apple Wallet to determine which restaurant gift card we should use for lunch. We’ve started asking extended family for restaurant gift cards as a family Christmas present, rather than a bunch of individual things, so now we have a selection of tasty options — all free to us! I’m grateful that our family’s generosity covers a fun lunch, with cocktails for the parents and mocktails for the teens.
- Library Love: Once we return home and the kids scatter to hang with friends, my husband and I take a stroll past the library. I magically find a half-dozen fun books and click my heels all the way home. Grateful for the frugal fun and fresh air!
- Journaling in the back yard: Between the library haul and the evening, I find an hour to journal in the backyard. I sit on the big swing (the last gift I received from my Dad before he passed away) under the honeysuckle (an accidental “gift” from the neighbor, when their seeds took root in our yard), while listening to the wind chimes (a Mother’s Day gift from long ago) gently dance. Journaling takes three directions: general life reflections, super-strategic points-and-miles planning (what credit card to open next for our next sign-up bonus?), and podcast planning (generating ideas for future episodes and series).
- Date Night: Saturday night is always date night, and I couldn’t be more grateful to the amazing man who makes it happen. My husband cooks an incredible dinner (homemade saffron tagliatelle with ricotta, crispy shallots and pickled chilis) paired with a cocktail menu. He cooks, serves, and cleans up. This is our standard Saturday night, and I am so grateful to be married to such a kind, talented, gracious man.
What’s funny is that this perfect day — a day filled with things I’m grateful for —- is also a completely realistic day. I’m blown-away grateful for the fact that this is my real, everyday life. [Reading this was like stepping into a Hallmark movie for a few minutes. I also love grocery shopping (though I loathe putting groceries away; thankfully, my husband enjoys it — teamwork makes the dream work)!]
Quick-Fire Questions With Kathleen
Q. Best money you’ve spent recently?
A beautiful knee-length, v-neck white Rebecca Taylor dress, worn for a day of medical appointments. I was diagnosed with breast cancer this spring, and as visits to doctors started crowding out client meetings on my calendar, I decided to take control of one silly thing: I’d dress up for the medical appointments.
That Rebecca Taylor dress took me through a morning with the genetics counselor and an afternoon with the plastic surgery team planning reconstruction. No fewer than four people complimented that dress, and I felt like a million bucks.
The extra fun part? I found it for $13 at Goodwill, when the original price would have been around $300-$400! [Thrifting for clothes is such a thrill and some of the finds are truly incredible. I love your idea to prioritize fashion for medical appointments; a tangible (and beautiful!) way to reclaim some control and joy in the midst of uncertainty.]
Q. If you were on a desert island and could only bring three items, which three items would you bring?
I’ll assume we’re not doing “stuff to escape” like a satellite phone. That being the case… a journal with an infinite supply of pages; a Kindle with an infinite supply of books + battery life, and a bottomless tube of sunscreen. (Can I sneak in an endless pen with that journal?) [I always ask this question, and I have zero idea how I would answer it, so I guess that means I should let you smuggle in an endless pen.]
Q. What’s the most useless or weird piece of trivia/skill you’re secretly proud of knowing?
Oh, this one is utterly useless! “Trespass” as a verb and “trespass” as a noun are pronounced differently, but most people only use the verb pronunciation. I accidentally learned this as a first-year law student in Crim Law, where both verb and noun forms abound!
Now I can’t say the Lord’s Prayer without sounding all pompous when saying “forgive us our tres-pess-es as we forgive those who tresPASS against us.” I whisper it, to avoid being a jerk. [I learn something new every day. I’m sure the Lord appreciates hearing it whispered correctly ;)]
Q. What’s the best piece of advice anyone has ever given you?
Near the end of college, I had a boyfriend who was bad news and who was also pressing the idea of getting married. My mom said, “kid, you’ll know when you know when you know, without a doubt, when you meet the right person to marry.”
Luckily, I listened to her and ended the relationship. And eight months after graduation, I met the love of my life. Mom was right: you know that you know that you know it’s the right person. No doubt, no drama. Just love.
Q. If you could teleport anywhere in the world right now, where would you go and why?
Can I teleport in time and place? I’d love to fast forward to one month from today! We’ll be on an island in Greece, with a vacation house overlooking the sea and the mountains, floating in an infinity pool, and loving life. [Yes, as long as you let my family teleport to Greece with you!]
My surgical drains will be gone, my double mastectomy wounds will be mostly healed, and hopefully cancer concerns will be fully in the past!
Q. What are two things you are objectively terrible at doing —one you wish you were good at and another you don’t care about?
Weight lifting and board games. I’d love to be good and disciplined about weight lifting. That’s on me — it’s possible; I just haven’t put in the effort.
But board games? Oh man, I just can’t stand them. Listening to someone explain the rules of a board game is instant boredom. I don’t like them and don’t want to like them! [I’m with you. I only play games out of obligation to my kids and, if I can help it, NEVER board games. Monopoly Deal is my current favourite card game. Just enough strategy that it’s interesting, not so much strategy that it’s hard, and a round takes less than 10 minutes.]
Q. Do you have a go-to reset when you’re feeling overwhelmed or struggling to stay focused?
A big bear hug from my husband is a remarkable reset when feeling overwhelmed. He’s the definition of calm in a storm, and he always reminds me how far we’ve come towards achieving our goals.
When struggling to stay focused, I generally “reset” by engineering some quick wins, which helps build momentum. Maybe it’s sorting the in-box by subject and doing some mass deleting of irrelevant emails. Sometimes it’s rewriting the to-do list, and adding a few things that I can easily cross off.
Q. If you had to choose a completely different career tomorrow, what would it be?
Either a city planner working on new urbanism projects, or a writer. Everyone says “look to what you were doing at 12, that’s probably what you’d enjoy doing as an adult.” Well, at 12 I was designing cities on endless sheets of taped-together paper, and I was writing the world’s worst novel. So there might be some wisdom in the old adage! [I want to see some pictures of those cities! I used to draw maps of imaginary “lands” all the time as a kid. I haven’t thought back to that habit in ages; thanks for the reminder. I like how author Alice Feeney adds hand-drawn maps to the start of her novels. That little nod to childhood whimsy makes me smile.]
Q. If you could eat only one meal on repeat for a week, what would you choose?
Thai drunken noodles with lots of deep fried tofu and veggies! Can we add a drink? If yes, Diet Dr. Pepper, from a fountain. [I’ve now had Dr. Pepper — Meh — but never Diet Dr. Pepper. Is there much of a difference?]
Q. Which way do you place toilet paper on the holder – over or under? Inquiring minds want to know.
I have always marveled that people noticed or cared which way toilet paper was hung.
Apparently folks have strong opinions! Also apparently, we live in a house of chaos, because I toss it on the holder willy nilly! [Oh, Kathleen. And just when I thought this was the start of a beautiful friendship. I don’t see toilet paper placement as an opinion — it’s more of a black/white right/wrong situation. To clarify, since you’re new in my life, it’s over.]
Final Thoughts on Gratitude and Minimalism
Kathleen, thanks so much for visiting my little corner of the internet.
Your answers are an important reminder that gratitude and minimalism aren’t primarily about giving things up. They’re about noticing what really matters (as cliché as that sounds!), appreciating what we already have, and creating more space for the people and experiences we value most.
Whether that looks like savouring a cold drink in a hot shower, wrapping ourselves in a cozy sweatshirt, preparing a luxurious meal at home, buying a beautiful dress second-hand, or using our money to create memories with the people we love, we all have opportunities to practice gratitude in ordinary life.
I especially appreciate your idea of reframing frugality as luxury. A less expensive option doesn’t always have to feel like the lesser option. Sometimes it offers more comfort, more meaning, more creativity, and—perhaps most importantly—more freedom over our time.
And you’ve given us plenty to think about in terms of how we spend.
Do our purchases support the life we actually want? Are we thinking about the environmental and ethical consequences of what we consume? Could spending less in one area create room for greater generosity or a more meaningful experience elsewhere?
Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m off to spend some time upping my travel hacking game!
Your turn.
- Any questions for Kathleen?
- Tell us your best “travel hacking” win.
- What are three “little joys” you’ve had so far today that leave you feeling grateful?
- Can you think of an example where frugality has felt like luxury or created space for more meaningful experiences?
- How do you consider the environmental or ethical impact of your purchases? Does this influence your consumption habits?
A Few More Gratitude in Practice Interviews
- Laura Vanderkam on gratitude and time
- Kae of Grateful Kae on practicing gratitude in everyday life
- Kristen of The Frugal Girl on gratitude and frugality
- Joel of How to Money on gratitude and personal finance
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Hi Kathleen-
Your life and travels and goals are so interesting. Amazing how you play the points game to travel!
What do your kids think of your minimalist way? Do they see the benefit?
Good luck and speedy healing from your surgery.
Thank you so much! Healing is going really well… I feel grateful that I started this journey in good health (apart from that pesky cancer).
My kids do seem to appreciate the minimalist approach to things. One is a natural minimalist who loves a streamlined wardrobe, a black-and-white, no-frills phone screen, and a simple approach to everything, so that’s no battle. The other is more stuff-oriented, in a sentimental way… things remind us of people we love! But that’s good and healthy. I’d pick a battle on keeping eight billion scraps of old math worksheets, but he doesn’t want to do that. He wants to keep all the old matchbox cars he played with with his grandpa, who passed away. I’m all for that!
Both kids seem to appreciate that our home is a calm, streamlined, non-messy environment. They’ve become pretty good at helping us maintain it (loading their dishes without being asked, etc.). I’m proud of them for that!
Thanks again for your kindness and compliments!
First of all, I want to wish Kathleen all the best in her recovery. I am a fellow lawyer and fan of her podcast (although I am woefully behind). I happened to read this post while enjoying my latest travel hack. We’re currently at the Hyatt Regency Maui. I booked our stay using Hyatt free night certificates and points, so the stay is free. I have Hyatt Globalist status, so we can access breakfast and dinner in the Regency Lounge for free. We’ve had one nice dinner and one nice lunch out. We flew here using an Alaska Airlines companion pass for my husband’s ticket. Tomorrow, we are moving to the Grand Wailea on Maui, where we will use several free night certificates. Life is good!
Beth C. you are LIVING THE LIFE right now! Your Globalist status at your current digs is working hard for you! Love that you made Alaska Airlines — a current darling in the points and miles world, for sure — work for you, including with a companion certificate! That’s some first-rate points and miles work.
Grabbing the Grand Wailea is a real coup; I’ve looked at base room points availability (aka FNC availability) and found it to be a challenging one. I hope you thoroughly enjoy the water slides and lazy river! My husband and I stayed next door at the Wailea Beach Villas (immediately next door to the North) for our honeymoon almost 20 years ago, and we bought a day pass to the Grand Wailea just to use the kid-focused lazy river and water slides. If you pop over to the Four Seasons (immediately next door to the South) you can see where the original White Lotus was filmed! Their breakfast buffet is highway robbery, BUT… they do have amazing Belgian waffles with coconut syrup and chocolate chips, plus a full savory Asian-inspired breakfast buffet (miso soup, etc.). Worth one meal. More budget friendly, Mateo’s pizza and Lappert’s ice cream nearby are so delicious.
Happy to hear from another lawyer, and thank you so much for the kind words about the podcast! It’s a challenge to keep up, and I want to step up my game on it, so positive comments and encouragement are so appreciated.
HAVE A BLAST with the rest of your vacation!
Loved, loved, LOVED this interview.
Most importantly, I wish you a speedy and smooth recovery from your surgery <3
And now…I have many questions!
I'm curious about the areas in your life where you splurge. Are there areas where you *don't* actively try to save money? Are there areas where you spend a bit more for convenience (like buying pre-cut veggies at the store, hiring someone to clean your house).
I suspect you don't hold on to a lot of things, but are there some special sentimental items that you won't ever let go of, even if they might be "clutter"? Is there any area of life where you're a maximalist (like having a lot of makeup or a collection of some sort)?
How do you handle kid stuff – their rooms and items they might want to keep? How do you control the flow of items into your house (like birthday party treat bags – UGH)?
Favorite international destination you've ever visited?
Top location on your travel bucket list that you haven't gone to yet?
Single best meal you've ever had on vacation – where were you and what did you eat?
Okay – I'll stop now!!!
Heidi,
Thank you so very much! The compliments are so sweet, and I love the questions!
I’ll aim to answer them below…
I’m curious about the areas in your life where you splurge. Are there areas where you *don’t* actively try to save money? Are there areas where you spend a bit more for convenience (like buying pre-cut veggies at the store, hiring someone to clean your house).
— Oh, we absolutely splurge. For a decade we had weekly house cleaners, given the combo of two VERY full time jobs plus little kids and multiple dogs. Now we have a monthly professional cleaning, which saves 75% of the cost but still helps out in this busy season. Similarly, right now, there’s a team outside my house doing weekly lawn care, because it’s relatively inexpensive compared to the amount of time it would take us to do it. And although I’m an Aldi aficionado, we round out the grocery list with plenty at Wegmans. I definitely purchased $30 of aged Manchego last week for some kind of white bean salad my husband was making. Bigger picture, we splurged on a six-figure home renovation… but we cash flowed the operation, stayed within 1% of budget, and it meant we didn’t need to move to a bigger place. So that probably saved us money overall! But every dollar was spend is done pretty thoughtfully and intentionally. We’ve become better about that over time!
I suspect you don’t hold on to a lot of things, but are there some special sentimental items that you won’t ever let go of, even if they might be “clutter”? Is there any area of life where you’re a maximalist (like having a lot of makeup or a collection of some sort)?
— Great question! The only areas were I keep things are (1) gifts from my parents or kids (I find it impossible to donate those things!), and (2) several items of my dad’s. We were extraordinarily close, he was an amazingly kind and big-hearted man, and he passed away from cancer several years ago. I’ve kept his toy trains from his childhood, his turntable, several of his shirts, his watch, and some of his clergy clericals (he was a minister). Those are my “the house is on fire, what do you take?” items. I’m ruthless about decluttering anything I have purchased; I’m deeply sentimental about these memories from people I love.
How do you handle kid stuff – their rooms and items they might want to keep? How do you control the flow of items into your house (like birthday party treat bags – UGH)?
— I let the kid keep their rooms as they please, within reason. Laundry goes in the laundry basket, not on the floor. Cans and cups and stuff need to be returned to recycling and the kitchen. But if they let their rooms get a little messy, that’s fine. I don’t want them to feel overly controlled; they are independent humans! On birthday party treat bags, I FEEL YOU! Have faith, though… those will stop at some point. My middle-and-high school kids now go to parties and come home with sugar highs, but no “stuff” anymore. Thank God!
Favorite international destination you’ve ever visited?
— So hard! Ties between Florence, Italy — Kyoto, Japan — and Dubrovnik, Croatia. But Lisbon is a close second (or fouth)? The world is so fill with so many incredible places. I can’t wait to discover more “ties” for first place!
Top location on your travel bucket list that you haven’t gone to yet?
— I’d love to go to Vietnam. In a past life that had a lot more adventure, my husband became nearly fluent in Vietnamese, and I’d love to have him brush that off so we can explore the history, the culture, and the nature there. Also, for some reason, I have a burning desire to go to Tasmania and New Zealand. They sound so wild and beautiful!
Single best meal you’ve ever had on vacation – where were you and what did you eat?
— Another tough one! There was a restaurant in Florence near Santa Croce — I think it was called Osteria San Fiorenzo — that was a star. In Kyoto, Vegan Izakaya was really delicious. In Lisbon, Organi Chiado is fantastic. But there are too many to list!
Thanks for the excellent questions, and the kind comments. Happy traveling, reading, and summering!
Thanks for introducing us to Kathleen. She certainly has a knack for finding gratitude wherever she goes. That’s a good thing in my estimation.
You ask: Can you think of an example where frugality has felt like luxury or created space for more meaningful experiences? Having fewer clothes in the closet because I’m frugal and enjoy curating things, means that I have the luxury of never fretting over what to wear. It all goes together because of advance planning. Took me years to figure this out.
Ally, less really can feel like more! I try to make sure I have nothing in my closet that a) doesn’t fit and b) doesn’t make me feel good. I’m slowly replacing some dowdy older things (mostly workout gear), but it’s nice to only see viable options when I go to my closet.
Ohhh, that’s a good one! I bet your closet feels like a spacious boutique with lovely, curated things.
What a lovely and inspiring interview! I love Kathleen’s idea of writing down the things you want to buy and waiting a bit to see if you really want them, or if you were just trying to “patch over a temporary frustration.”
Kathleen, I hope you have a good recovery from your surgery, and I’m sure your attitude of gratitude will help.
Michelle, thank you so much for your kindness! Healing is going extraordinarily well, and agree with you that mindset probably does play a materially helpful role in that!
What a fabulous post — I loved reading all of Kathleen’s insights, but especially the idea of linking frugality and luxury! What a fantastic reframing. I am going to try to carry that thinking with me.
Kathleen — it was wonderful to get to know you, and I wish you a speedy and complete recovery.
I’ve think we’ve long been fed the narrative that frugality means taking away and doing without or accessing a lesser product or experience. But so often, it gives us more! More freedom, more luxury, and more peace of mind.
Thank you, Suzanne! I so appreciate your kindness. And the reframe of frugality as luxury (less is more, in a way) is SUCH a fun one to implement. Looking for areas in life where it can work is a neat and efficient treasure hunt!
This was a great read and you are a great interviewer!
I love her thrifty advice and her gratefulness is abundant.
Prayers that her health journey is only on the positive side for the duration of her life!!
And that dress from goodwill? SWOON!
Suz, thank you so much! Every line you wrote made me smile widely. Hope you have a wonderful day, and thanks again for your dose of delight today!
I loved this! I love the idea of seeing frugality as a luxury. I’ve never thought about it like that before, but I get it- fewer things means less decisions to make and less stress. I can see how, if someone is accustomed to eating out all the time, on the go, having a simple meal at home is a luxury. Or getting up and having plenty of time to make breakfast for your kids, instead of rushing off, also could feel luxurious. I do have to put my foot down on one point though- grocery shopping would not be part of my ideal day! But hey- to each his own.
Good luck to Kathleen with her recovery, and enjoy that Greek island!!!
I put my foot down about the thermostat…so I had to chuckle you did the same with the grocery shopping. (For the record, I LOVE grocery shopping…I just dislike putting it away.)
Elisabeth, you live in such a cold place that I totally get it! When I was in college in New Hampshire, the name of the game was “just don’t freeze!” for five months of the year. Hope you’re having a lovely day, and thanks for the opportunity to share with and interact with the super cool community you’ve built here.
Thanks for answering all my questions! It was both fun — and inspiring! — to read your answers.
I struggle with the cold so much and one of the best decisions of the last few years has been to set the thermostat a bit higher in the winter. I’ll buy every article of clothing second hand, but a girl needs warm feet!
Jenny, thank you so much for your response! Totally understood on the grocery shopping… my husband would agree with you wholeheartedly.
SOOOOO looking forward to Greece! I’ve started a little packing planning, which might be the kind of thing that a grocery shopping lover would enjoy doing. (HA!)
Hope you have a lovely day!
Nice meeting you, Kathleen. I hope your health improves and that your recovery from surgery is speedy and uneventful. Your approach to life is refreshing. I am interested in the travel hacks. I’d say my win was when we took the whole family to Disney and the flights were free. (There were 8 of us as that time). I know there are things we can do to score more deals. I hope I can figure it out and carve out some time to make it happen. Lots of good tips in this post. Thanks!
Ernie, thank you so much for sharing! Getting 8 people on free flights is a big win, and I hope you thoroughly enjoyed the family time at Disney. Also, here’s hoping you enjoy diving deeper into travel hacking; it really is such a fun puzzle with massive payoff!
I’m curious if your parents were frugal?! Did you grow up with some of these values in place, or are they more self-developed since reaching adulthood?
Do you and your husband have any areas in terms of frugality where you differ?
I’m also interested to know more about what type of law you practice. Best part of being a lawyer? Worst part?
Bee, thank you for the great questions! Here are my answers…
I’m curious if your parents were frugal?! Did you grow up with some of these values in place, or are they more self-developed since reaching adulthood?
— Yes, they were! Dad was a minister in small churches and Mom helped him while staying home when I was young, so money was tight — but they always made us feel secure. They are absolutely the reason why I paid off 6 figures of college and law school loans ASAP and had our mortgage paid off before we turned 40. Those values were absolutely shared with me growing up. They weren’t minimalists by any means, but they were thoughtfully frugal. I actually share a good bit of my “money story” in Episode 50 of my podcast, the Minimal(ish) Mom podcast. That episode was actually my Mother’s Day gift to my mom (in addition to a delicious Mexican lunch with margaritas!)
Do you and your husband have any areas in terms of frugality where you differ?
— Only on small things. He spends more on hobbies than I do, but that’s the difference between buying used books (him) and going to the library (me), or using Audible (him) v. Libby (me). His bigger spending hobbies are things that benefit the family… woodworking where he builds us furniture, stained glass to make gorgeous hand-crafted lamps, fancy ingredients for incredible cooking adventures. I will say, before our FIRE journey (financial independence, retire early) he paid less attention to the costs of items, because we were both high earners and there was no acute need to pinch pennies. But once we defined our FIRE goals, he became hyper aware of spending in a way I find absolutely endearing.
I’m also interested to know more about what type of law you practice. Best part of being a lawyer? Worst part?
— I’m a mass torts defense litigator at a big firm… about 18 years in at this point! The best parts of being a lawyer (particularly my field) is that (1) you’re always learning new and interesting things across a range of areas. I need to know my client’s products, the science behind them, what the science says on risks, etc., and (2) I work with INCREDIBLY smart people. Like, scary smart. The level of discourse and quality of work is truly world-class. The hardest part? The hours and the travel. I’ve spent many many hours at high levels of exhaustion pushing through to get the next thing done. And being away from family on travel, particularly extended travel like trials and long hearings, is difficult. I’m acutely aware of the passage of time and my kiddos becoming older. As I’ve become more senior, I’ve also become better about pushing back and setting boundaries. It has helped pretty substantially.
Thanks for asking, and have a great day!
So fun to see Kathleen here! Great interview!
I know Kathleen through the BOBW Patreon community and through her podcast so it’s fun to see her world colliding with yours, Elisabeth.
Kathleen – I wish you a speedy recovery. My good friend had a double mastectomy in May and oof it is a tough surgery (and she had hers on the tail of a breast reduction which is now her cancer was detected). Switching gears, my husband and I are naturally frugal which was probably influenced by our upbringings. We work in high paying fields so the goal has always been for one of us to retire early (me, hopefully in my early 50s) and the other to take a big step back in responsibility (him, probably late 50s). I feel more comfortable with one of us having amazing healthcare since I have a chronic condition (RA) that is very expensive to manage. And our kids are quite young (4 and 7) so we aren’t quite ready to retire in our 40s. If my kids were older I might feel differently about that. At their ages, I like having the outlet of work because I am not well suited to be a SAHM… but in 8-10 years they will be in very different (less physically demanding) stages of life. And family travel will be more appealing than it is now! So I look forward to exchanging my income for more time to spend as I want. And I will be very glad to be done with work travel!
I didn’t know you and Kathleen already overlapped in another “world” – the blogging/podcasting community is just that…such a wonderful space with lots of interwoven friendships.