Happy Tuesday, friends. I’m so excited to welcome Meagan Francis to the blog today as part of my Gratitude Guest series!
If you’ve been around the world of motherhood media over the past decade, there’s a good chance you’ve heard Meagan’s voice. An award-winning podcaster, Meagan co-hosted The Mom Hour with Sarah Powers — a show that became a trusted companion for moms in the thick of parenting. Now, in true Meagan fashion, she’s embracing a new season of life with a fresh project: her podcast Midlife Lady Leisure Pursuits. It’s a joyful, honest look at what it means to enjoy leisure in midlife (and yes, their episode on thrifting earns bonus points from me).
As if that weren’t enough, Meagan recently released a book: The Last Parenting Book You’ll Ever Read: How We Let Our Kids Go and Embrace What’s Next. It’s written for moms navigating the weird, beautiful, and sometimes hard transitions that come when our kids start growing up and heading out on their own. It’s about endings…and new beginnings. She shares thoughtful insights on how to show up for our families (and ourselves!!) as we learn to let go. You can get the book in print and audio!
Meagan is a wife and the proud mom of five kids — ages 16 to 28 — as well as two young adult stepkids and an adorable step-grandson who keeps things lively at 2½.
In between writing, podcasting, mothering, and “leisuring”, Meagan recently opened a brick-and-mortar tea shop called Bevy (she’s loving it!). While she’s no longer on social media, you can engage with her on Substack.
As Meagan enters a whole new chapter of motherhood, I’m excited to hear her thoughts on finding gratitude in the middle of major life transitions.
Let’s dive in.
Q. Would you consider yourself an optimist, a pessimist, or a realist?
Is it possible to be all three? I lean pessimistic/realistic in that I don’t expect things to work out the way we hope. But I’m an optimist because I realize I could be wrong about that! 🙂 I don’t actually think of optimism meaning “everything is going to go great and work out for the best!” but more of a posture of recognizing that any situation has the possibility to work out better than we expect, and – here’s the important part – that we have agency over how things turn out. Life isn’t just stuff that happens TO us; we are co-creating the world around us at all times. I am grateful for the opportunities struggles and challenges bring because they allow me to really exercise that agency and be creative with problem-solving. That’s a very optimistic stance, I think, even if I am also at the same time preparing for the very strong possibility of hard times and disappointment. [I love your take on optimism — realistic enough to expect hard things, but hopeful enough to believe we can often shape the outcome. It feels like a sweet spot between “everything happens for a reason” and “nothing ever works out.”]
Q. What’s something ridiculously specific or odd you’re grateful for in this exact moment?
I put on a new pair of pants this morning and I was afraid the waistband would dig in and be uncomfortable, but they haven’t been too tight at all! Little wins are everywhere 🙂 [I’d argue that finding pants that fit isn’t a little win…it’s a monumental victory. As someone with “generous” hips and a smaller waist, pants are my lifelong nemesis!]
Q. As your kids approach big milestones like college, how has your perspective on motherhood shifted? What are you most grateful for in this new stage of life?
I’ve been a mom for nearly twenty-eight years, so I realized quite a while ago that motherhood is about the long game and not getting “results” in the moment. Now that my kids are mostly adults, I am seeing the truth in that approach more than ever! What I’m really grateful for in this stage is the opportunity to see that “long road”, big-picture approach come to fruition: I get to reap the benefits of having built strong relationships with each of my children and now get to have these cool, kind adult people in my life! And although of course relationships are always something we have to work at, and there’s a unique sort of emotional work that goes into releasing our grip in this stage of motherhood, it feels like a lot more reward and a lot less work these days. [This gives me so much hope and anticipation. I have a (mostly; they have their moments, of course!) cool and kind tween and teen, but it’s exciting to think about those character traits morphing into adulthood.]
Q. With a blended family of seven kids (and even a grandbaby!) and a wide range of personalities, do you think optimism/gratitude is something that can be “learned”, or is it more of an inherent trait that people either have or don’t?
I think both gratitude and optimism comes more naturally to some than others, but can be learned or cultivated in anyone. I’ve tried to model a posture of thankfulness for what goes right and a proactive energy around struggle for my kids, but it’s actually been really useful to me to be around people who are oriented a little more “pessimistically.” It has helped me learn that it’s not particularly helpful to tell an anxious person that “everything will work out for the best” or get impatient if they want to talk through potential pitfalls before trying something new. That is a valid way of approaching the world, too, and it’s good for me to be reminded of it so I can exercise more patience and compassion. [As a naturally pessimistic person, you’re preaching to the choir! And a great reminder that humans DO approach life in different ways and those differences are not inherently good/bad. They’re just…different.]
What was the biggest obstacle you faced in finding contentment during the “little years” of motherhood? What advice would you give to new moms who are struggling through those challenging times?
I really thrive when the speed of my days looks like a slow, productive, self-paced putter – so while I found all the interruptions of early motherhood difficult, in many ways the school years were even harder because so much about our day to day and week to week schedule was out of my control. I’m a bit of a rebel at heart, and finding little ways to “rebel” against what I thought was expected of me as a mom in those days was instrumental to my mental health. For me that looked like pushing back against the expectation of overscheduled evenings and a lot of extracurriculars. As a mom of teens, it looked like resisting the expectation that I was going to personally manage my kids’ sports schedules, track their physical locations, or involve myself heavily in their social lives. For another mom reading this, healthy resistance might look a little different, but throughout my years of parenting it’s been so, so helpful to keep reminding myself that I don’t have to go along with whatever the culture of the day seems to be trying to pull me into. [I often feel guilt about “underscheduling” my kids, but I covet every single quiet evening we get at home. My absolute favourite flow state is a slow, productive putter — I think we might be kindred spirits.]
Q. What’s the most underrated part of raising grown children?
It’s not popular to say so, but I’ve actually really enjoyed the times my young-adult kids have moved back into our home for a few weeks or months while between jobs or places to live. You definitely need solid boundaries and clear communication to make it work, but when it does, it gives you this wonderful glimpse into who they’re becoming as adults that’s harder to get from more intermittent visits.
Q. Some women feel that leisure is a luxury they don’t “deserve” after years of putting everyone else first. How would you encourage these women to shift that mindset and enjoy and prioritize leisure time?
In the early years of motherhood we get so used to making the most of every moment, usually with other peoples’ needs front and center, and it can definitely take practice to orient ourselves toward leisure again. I recommend taking tiny steps toward realizing that time for yourself with no specific goal in mind is even a possibility. Take ten or fifteen extra minutes for yourself when you’re running an errand – linger in the candle section of the store and sniff, leaf through a magazine before you enter the checkout, or just sit in the car and listen to the radio or stare out the window. There is a whole network of pathways in your brain that were rewired by early motherhood; give yourself time to carve out new grooves again!
Q. What’s one simple, everyday leisure activity that always leaves you feeling grateful, and what makes it so special to you?
A long walk outdoors in some beautiful place. I always feel so grateful for what is “ours” that we don’t have to do anything to own: the trees, the sky, bodies of water. And I’m also grateful that walking is free, and that it’s something that’s accessible to me – at least at this time of my life. [I have to jump in at this point and award gold stars to all the members of this month’s Cool Bloggers Walking Club!]
Q. As you’ve gotten older, have your leisure activities shifted? How have these changes affected your overall sense of gratitude for life’s little joys?
When I was younger, I think I expected so much out of any given day or activity. I tried to cram so much productivity into my days and expected so much from myself from an outcome perspective. Today I just put a lot less expectation on excelling at any given thing, and less expectations around outcomes in general. I can just let a day be a day, and inside each day, I can just…be. That has shifted everything, from the kind of activities I enjoy, to how “good” I expect myself to be at them, to how much progress I expect to make. Leisure is just so much more quietly enjoyable and peaceful without all that expectation. [Letting a day just…be a day. Imagine that! A radical act in a world where even our rest days now seem to come with performance reviews.]
Q. What are some easy, practical ways you’ve found to incorporate gratitude into your everyday habits, especially during busy or stressful times?
For me it’s less about practical tips or habits and more about a stance or posture I bring to life; again that sense of agency or competency to deal with whatever is in front of me. If I’m feeling too busy, what can I change about my schedule to shift things back toward balance? If I’m stressed, how can I care for myself in that moment? How can I impact my environment so that I can be healthier and happier inside of it?
And it helps to remind myself that everything is temporary: this is just a moment which will soon be replaced by another moment. Whatever feels hard or impossible right now, it will change. The hard thing won’t necessarily magically go away, but something will shift – even if it’s just my ability to cope with it. [This reminds me of Nicole/Allison’s mantra that: There will be a time after this. It’s such a simple truth, but one I have to keep relearning every time life feels like too much.]
Q. If you could design a day based entirely around things you’re grateful for, what would that day look like from start to finish?
I sort of feel like that is already my life because I’m typically pretty grateful for most things that come my way. So I don’t have to design a day around things I’m grateful for; I’m (mostly) grateful for the things that wind up in my day.
Q. If you were on a desert island and could only bring three items, which three items would you bring?
My mind went right to my tea habit! So I’d need some kind of kettle that I could heat up over an open fire, matches, and of course, lots and lots and lots of tea. [I know I speak for many of my readers in saying we take our warm beverages VERY seriously.]
Q. Do you have a go-to reset when you’re feeling overwhelmed or struggling to stay focused?
I work on my computer a lot, where there are always a million distractions and things I could potentially do, and I can get really stuck in a loop of not knowing where to put my attention next. When I find myself spinning my wheels, it always helps to step away and do something with my body, whether that’s going out to feed the chickens, taking a quick walk (without my phone!), or even loading the dishwasher. A tactile, physical activity just feels like a reset button of sorts when my problem is information overwhelm.
If that doesn’t work and the overwhelm is extreme, I will “take to my bed”: sandwiches for dinner, pajamas super early, and crawl between the sheets with a book when it’s still light out. I actually started doing this when my kids were little. Every now and then I’d feel so overwhelmed by the noise and mess and my to-do list, and it gave me great joy to just cry uncle and call it a day early. I’d tell my kids in a funny, melodramatic voice, “Mom is tired out and I’m TAKING TO MY BED!” Depending on their ages, they’d either crawl up into the bed with me and we’d get in an evening of epic snuggles, or they’d play quietly near me or we’d all watch a movie together. When they got older, they’d take over some of the housework/dinner chores that I was writing off for the night. There is something so empowering in realizing that I have the ability to pull the pressure valve by proactively resting and caring for myself, before it turns into full-on burnout. [I have done this! My husband travels frequently for work, and there were nights when the kids were little where I hit a wall. Toast for supper, supervised by me from the couch, and early bedtimes for everyone. Sometimes that’s exactly what the proverbial doctor ordered.]
Q. If you had to choose a completely different career tomorrow, what would it be?
I’ve been fortunate to have the opportunity to re-imagine my career so many times over the years and I’m pretty much always in a state of reinvention when it comes to my work, so there’s always the danger that if I think too hard about this question, I’ll find myself actively overhauling my career in the near future. That said, I have always thought it would be so interesting to be a historian or archeologist specializing in the private lives of ordinary people. Hmm…give me a sec while I Google how to get started on that, would you? 🙂 [I’m here for any book that comes out of this idea. I can definitely picture you unearthing hidden stories and turning them into something fascinating.]
Q. If you could eat only one meal on repeat for a week, what would you choose?
If you’d asked me this ten years ago I probably would have said peanut butter toast – which I think I actually did eat round the clock for a couple of years as a teenager – but weirdly, too much peanut butter now gives me heartburn! What a tragedy! I could definitely eat some kind of grain bowl with sweet potato, pecans, greens, and cranberries many times before getting sick of it. [My ultimate comfort meal is a toasted English muffin with peanut butter — all deliciously melty and drippy — topped with perfectly ripe banana slices. That said, I wouldn’t turn down roasted sweet potato topped with a soft-fried egg…or sushi.]
Q. What way do you place toilet paper on the holder – over or under? Inquiring minds want to know!
Over. It’s funny, I always figured anyone who put it the other way did that by accident. Ha! Which reminds me that I’m grateful that when my husband built our home, he installed the kind of toilet-paper dispensers that make it very easy to turn the roll around if I accidentally do it wrong. See, there’s always something to be grateful for. [When Kae was visiting she had a devious plan to sneak into all the bathrooms in my house and switch the toilet paper to UNDER. Thankfully, she ran out of time and a friendship crisis was narrowly averted.]
This conversation with like Meagan is a great reminder that gratitude doesn’t have to come wrapped in glitter and sunshine — sometimes it looks like pulling the covers over my head with a cup of tea and declaring, “I’m taking to my bed!” [At the time I’m writing this I’m dressed in a comfy sweatshirt and jogging pants, wearing my robe to stay extra warm and cozy, sipping a cup of tea, and longingly eyeing my bed wishing for a leisurely nap!]
Her blend of realism and optimism feels like exactly what midlife calls for: a little wisdom, a little rebellion, and a lot of permission to slow down. I especially love her take on letting a day just be a day. (A radical concept in a world where “rest” somehow turned into yet another productivity goal.)
If you haven’t already, go check out The Last Parenting Book You’ll Ever Read (it’s equal parts truth-telling and encouragement) and her podcast Midlife Lady Leisure Pursuits, which might just convince you to treat fun and adventure as a life pursuit. And if you ever find yourself in St. Joseph or Manistique, Michigan, go sip something lovely at her tea shop, Bevy, and tell her I sent you 😉
Your turn.
- Any questions for Meagan?
- Have you ever felt guilty for slowing down or underscheduling? How have you learned to reframe that?
- What’s one small, oddly specific thing you’re grateful for today?
- For readers with older children, what do you think is the most underrated part of raising grown children?
- What’s your go-to tea (or coffee) order?
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Hi Megan,
I read the book! It made me reflect a little about where I am as a parent. Like you , I have some adult children. And some younger ones.
My question for you- whats the hardest part of having adult children?
And I only driink basic black tea with lots of sweetener. I’m more of a soda drinker; my palate doesn’t appreciate most teas.
I have yet to find a herbal tea I actually enjoy. But I really should continue the hunt since having options without caffeine would be lovely.
I think Earl Grey is my absolute favourite tea, though a warming chai on a cool winter afternoon is very hard to beat!
THREE CHEERS FOR KETTLES! Yes, that’s exactly what I’d take to a desert island too…nothing like a cuppa to save the day! (English breakfast black tea and a spot of milk). I see Meagan has the kettle theme on her website, too – very cool!
And I love that phrase self-paced putter – that’s my dream rhythm as well: productive and structured, but at my own pace, with little islands of idleness in between.
Such an inspiring conversation, Elisabeth. Did you get to know Meagan through her book?
I actually learned about Meagan through a podcast interview she did AND (I think it was Kae, maybe SHU?) suggested that I reach out about being a guest.
I really hope to meet her in person some day; I think we have a LOT in common. Minus tending chickens 😉
When Meagan mentioned her tea needs for the desert island I immediately thought of you, Catrina! I am so curious how many cups you have a day. Am I being wild in thinking you said something like 30???
Ooh, Meagan! I used to listen to The Mom Hour but the funny thing is, I never knew what Meagan looked like- it was fun to see these photos! I’m very interested in Meagan’s book (and by the way- GREAT title). I have one adult child and one teetering on the edge of adulthood and I’m resisting the transition a little. Clearly I need to do some reading! And… I’m going to use that from now on- “I’m taking to my bed!” I love it.
Doesn’t “I’m taking to my bed” sound like something Lydia Bennet would say very dramatically? It sounds so posh and also…lovely.
@Meagan: Jenny has daytime AND nighttime PJs. She takes comfort seriously and we bond over our shared love of naps <3
I remember seeing the co-hosts of Stuff You Should Know once and being floored. They were nothing like I imagined!
I have no questions because I’m too busy applauding the title Midlife Lady Leisure Pursuits. I’m gong to start with the solo roadtrip episode. I am also craving pb toast, and since I don’t have any issues with eating pb, I think I will celebrate by having it for breakfast.
You have stayed at my house. You know my stance on PB. There is little I enjoy more on planet earth that a very peanut buttery flavour profile be it sweet or savoury.
Okay, this is “out there” but if you could invite two women from any era (real or fictional) to share tea and conversation with you at Bevy, who would you choose and why?
I know this question is for Meagan, not me, but I had to chime in that I find these questions SO hard. I feel like I want to meet so many people.
I’m going to keep this super simple. I’m going to pick Jenny (Runner’s Fly) and Catrina (Keep on Running) because they’re my blog readers who seem to love tea the most and I am desperate (DESPERATE) to meet both of them <3
My kids aren’t quite as old as yours, but I have to admit that I love the independence at bedtime as they get older. Being able to go to bed when *I’m* tired and know they will do all the bedtime things on their own has been life-changing. I also find it hilarious that they are managing their own schedules much of the time. Sometimes they go to visit friends and I don’t lift a finger to help with the planning. I suppose if I thought about it long enough it might make me sad. But I only think about it long enough to remember all the logistics of planning their playdates and such when they were little and appreciating that, for the most part, they don’t need me to help with that anymore!
I’m currently in midlife and I feel like everyone is talking about it like a crisis. Sometimes literally! You seem to frame it more like…an awakening. I like that. It feels like there is more agency and freedom. Plus, it’s something to look forward to, not dread!
Such a good reframe. That midlife can be seen as an expansive season, not a contracting one.
We’re letting go of some parenting responsibilities but that does give us more leeway to embrace leisure or other pursuits that interest us.
It’s making me excited for the next stages which currently seem eons away but I know Belle will be graduating from high school in the proverbial blink of an eye…
My children are grown, but once they married, it was so fun to go on double dates with them. Now that they have young children, we enjoy going on vacation with them. I never imagined doing any of this when they were young.
Can I admit it had never once crossed my mind that one might go on a DOUBLE DATE with their children. That still seems incomprehensible to me (as in – so far away), but how fun.
I adore how Kae and her family travel with her parents. What a special opportunity!
I’ve been counting them, it’s around 20. There’s always a cup of tea next to my elbow when I’m sitting down! Sometimes it also goes cold because I forget it, ha!
That’s…a lot of tea. I’m on my second cup of the day, though, so I’m doing my best to catch up 😉
I also did the ‘taking to my bed’ thing – often in January, which is the cruellest month for me, or when my husband was traveling. Angus would be beside me in bed and my large reading chair with the ottoman was a perfect fit for a single twin sheet so that would be Eve’s little bed. We would read or they would watch stuff or play little video games and it was bliss.
I have often felt guilty for underscheduling or cutting back. This wasn’t really an option with Angus and his baseball schedule – you can be a dedicated underscheduler all day long, but if your kid finds something they really love that doesn’t really cooperate with that mindset you have to adapt – but if my husband was away I could ask for someone else to take him to practice. With chronic pain and health issues I always find it’s a difficult balance to strike – I feel like I’m not doing enough, so I ramp stuff up, and then I’m exhausted so I cut back and feel relieved, and then it seems like not enough again. It’s good that someone writes books about this stuff, because it is a challenging issue!
Solidarity for the solo-parenting moms out there. Especially in the winter. Oh those were some loooong days sometimes.
I just love picturing you AND the kids cuddling up and hibernating together. I suspect those are cherished memories for the whole family. Well…minus your husband WHO HAD THE AUDACITY TO BE AWAY.
Yes, as the kids get older it is harder to underschedule!
Also, oh my goodness, I could have written this few lines WORD FOR WORD! “I feel like I’m not doing enough, so I ramp stuff up, and then I’m exhausted so I cut back and feel relieved, and then it seems like not enough again. ”
Hi Meagan! I’ve been to St. Joe, MI and hope to go again sometime, so I’ll be sure to check out the shop. I drank tea when I studied abroad in Ireland and I really only like Irish breakfast tea. My kids are similar ages to yours, and I am pleasantly surprised that it is so much fun to spend time with them as they get older. This wasn’t something I was never focused on during the busy years of raising them and racing to all of their ‘stuff.’ I value their feedback and the way they interact with one another, but they’re so incredibly supportive of me and they rally around me – it’s really fabulous and I never anticipated that. When they were really little, I limited what they joined and I honestly only feel guilty that I didn’t let Lad do Boy Scouts. I couldn’t make it work with nap time, but I think he would’ve clicked there. I’m grateful that I’m going to be earlier (well, not AS early as I anticipated, but still early for me) tonight than usual.
I haven’t had a chance to listen to your new podcast yet; I’m curious what sorts of things you typically discuss and what your personal go-to leisure activities look like these days (and are they vastly different from what you used to find compelling)?
I know I can’t be alone in this, but it’s really nice to have someone explicitly state that I’m not alone <3
Having grown children is SO FAR OFF for me so it’s hard to wrap my mind around that stage of life. Unrelated, I was listening to The Girls Next Door Podcast this am and Kelsey said she wanted to spend as much time as possible with her great-grandchildren and that comment kind of floored me because that is kind of impossible for me unless my children’s children have kids too young (which I personally would not wish for but I recognize I am biased about “the right time” to have kids…).
Anyways… now that I’m off that tangent! I can struggle with being a bit of a slave to productivity so shouldless days have been a Godsend for me. It’s helpful to carve out a whole day that is only to be spent doing things I want and nothing I “need/should.” I’m also trying to be more gentle with myself regarding my higher need for rest/quiet. I’m kind of living life in the fast lane much of the time so I need periods of rest on weekends to sort of recalibrate. I feel like an outside person could judge that need but oh well. What other people potentially think about me and my need for rest is none of my business. (and chances are no one is judging me/thinking I’m such a lazy person…). But that is a force I’m kind of always pushing against in my mind since we live in a society that seems to pride itself on how little a person sleeps or how much they accomplish in a given day. When people ask how I am, I try my hardest not to say “I am so busy!!” because it contributes to that narrative and isn’t healthy IMO…
Geez I’ve really gone off on a tangent with my comments! 😛 Can you tell I’m back in therapy and really thinking about these sorts of things?
I have not ONCE given thought to great-grandchildren (though I am definitely secretly hoping that I get to have at least some grandchildren).
I have to admit that my go-to response is so often, without even thinking, “Busy” when someone asks how we’re doing!
This is so great! I haven’t met Meagan in person but she lives very near my hometown and I actually went to school with her husband. Her writing and podcasts have been such a source of encouragement for me.
It’s a small world!!!!
@MBMOM11: Thanks so much for reading my book! I think the hardest part of parenting older kids is probably the loss of control – which is really just the loss of the ILLUSION of control since we never really have it 🙂
A lot of people I meet are tea-hesitant! To be honest a lot of what’s out there is just not very good. I used to only drink tea with lots of sugar, until I started branching out into better quality teas.
Ahhh, @Catrina, you are describing MY perfect day as well! Maybe we should just hang out for a day together and see what all gets done. And how many cups of English Breakfast (my fave as well) get drunk up!
Hiya Jenny! Too funny about The Mom Hour – you would not believe how many people who both listened and followed us on social thought I was the brunette and Sarah the blonde. Every time we did a video together it would create a lot of confusion 🙂
@Birchie: If I have peanut butter toast in the morning it doesn’t impact me as much as before bed, so I think I know what I’m having for breakfast tomorrow…
This has yet to happen for me but I love the idea so much!!!
Probably similar here. I have four or five cups of black tea in the morning, usually switch to white or oolong in the early afternoon, then it’s herbal allll the rest of the afternoon and evening. Lately I’ve been getting into rooibos in the evenings, too, since it’s got a little more body than most herbals. I just had a cup of red rooibos, lavender and mint – so good!
@Stacy – having my kids start to manage their own schedules might actually have been my favorite perk of them growing up!! My two oldest came of age right as people were starting to transition away from land lines, but young kids almost never had phones of their own at that time, so it was always the parents (usually Mom) playing go-between with the other parents. So glad that’s behind me now.
@Heidi, one thing that’s been particularly pleasantly surprising for me is how getting older, and the time and space opened up by the kids getting older, has led me BACK to a lot of the things I found enjoyable in my youth. In my book I refer to this as “channeling my little-girl energy” and a lot of my midlife lady pursuits (foraging/time in nature, cooking, reading, etc) are extensions of, or returns to, things I loved when I was really little.
@Kaethe, how fun to run into you here!